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Jack Hollis is the executive VP of Toyota North America. He loves to say: "I work for Jesus, but get paid by Toyota." How does he lead such a successful business and yet live out his faith? What leadership principles has he learned from Jesus? In this interview, Sean talks with Jack about his journey to becoming a Christian, his story of becoming one of the key leaders within Toyota, and how he integrates his faith into his work.

Jack Hollis is executive vice president of Toyota Motor North America (TMNA). He is also president of Toyota Motor Sales. In his role, Jack is responsible for product planning, sales, marketing, distribution and customer service for the Toyota and Lexus brands in North America.

Episode Transcript

Sean: What can we learn about leadership and discipleship from the executive vice president of Toyota North America, my new friend Jack Hollis? What does he learn from Jesus for leading others, and what are the unique challenges Christians face today in the business world? I'm your host, Sean McDowell, and these are a few of the questions we're going to discuss today on the Think Biblically podcast brought to you by Talbot School of Theology, ��ݮ��Ƶ. Jack, since the moment we met about two months ago in the Philippines, I've been thinking our folks at Biola and beyond have to hear from you. So amidst all the stuff you're doing, thanks for carving out the time to join me.

Jack: You are so welcome and I'm happy to be with you. And just as a reminder, we didn't talk about it too much, but I have family and history at Biola.

Sean: Oh, cool.

Jack: And love the place, and Talbot, and just love the opportunity to be on with you and your team.

Sean: Well, this is a treat. I'm going to jump right in because there are so many things you said that have stayed with me and really influenced me, Jack. And one of the things you said on stage—and this is at a huge church in the Philippines, there's 8,000 or 12,000 people there onsite—you said you work for Jesus, but get paid by Toyota. You had me at that line, but tell me what you mean by that.

Jack: You know, it's actually come up over a bit of time and I’ve always been a little careful how I use it because I don't want people thinking that I don't work for Toyota. Clearly what I do for Toyota matters, and people matter, and profits matter. But what it really means is that my focus is on the kingdom—what I'm doing in my workplace. And ultimately, my heart is…I feel like every day, the person who put me in the job I'm currently in is God. Now, He works through my bosses and all in the company. But, if I really am living or giving my life to Christ, I have to go with where he puts me. And so I look at it as, every day I work for Him. I just get paid by Toyota. And it's kind of been a funny thing. But what it actually means is that I'm living for His kingdom and I want to do kingdom business leadership. I want to lead in a biblical way, and it just fits in that sentence. And I kind of enjoyed it and the responses I get from folks.

Sean: Well, we're going to get into what that means to lead biblically in your line of work and beyond. But I'm really curious. I didn't get a chance to ask you this. What's your journey to faith? Did you come up in a Christian home? How and when did you become a Christian?

Jack: It is one of those questions that sometimes I wish I had a better story, because I grew up in a baby Christian home. I think part of the story is my dad and mom both accepted Jesus, accepted salvation, accepted the free gift when I was born—the same year I was born. So I grew up in a baby Christian home with parents who said, we go to Wednesday night Bible study. We have Friday night small group, and we have Saturday preparation for church, and Sunday church in the morning, and Sunday church at night. I was always a part of it. So, I actually gave my life to God in the city of Torrance, California when I was five years old at a Sunday school. And I can still remember to this day. I remember the woman who asked me to pray, or not asked me, but allowed me to pray with her. And then at the age of 13—if you want to say rededicated, if that's even possible—at the age of 13, I was at a camp and during camp there was this, kind of, acknowledgement. It's almost like I felt like I was older, and I felt like I wanted to recommit my life at that time. But I've walked with the Lord from as long as I can remember.

Sean: I love it. Now when we were together, you were telling me that not long ago, you had met with Mr. Toyota. I think you said the meeting was in Japan. So you are within the world of Toyota, with one of the most significant, influential leaders. Now, we could probably unpack your story for three or four hours. But did you set out wanting to have a position like this? What are some of the key people or key events that just led you to be able to have the kind of position you have today?

Jack: You know what, it is. It is a great story and it is three or four hours. Every time I think about it, I'm more and more blown away by the favor of God and how this is. I have worked my tail off. I always believed in this whole idea of 100% of my attitude and 100% of my effort to go after everything I'm doing. And that way I'm super comfortable that the results are God's. You know, I never want to look back that I gave 80% and go well, what if? I mean, I know that I've given that. And so, my part is that I've given all of my abilities to be used by God and He's used it to put me in these different places. I will tell you, I've had multiple jobs. I've worked for the company for 32 years, and within 32 years I've had 17 different roles.

Sean: Wow.

Jack: And amongst those 17 different roles, I've had approximately five careers, meaning some of those roles are in the same sort of discipline. If you look at it, I've had multiple careers within one company, and because of each of them…they have built up to a point where people have…I think the feedback I got was…they understood I was very, very committed to serving people, always how to develop others to kind of move up with me as a team or as a group. But it was always that, and that has been kind of my rhythm in my career. But I ultimately have done parts, and service departments, sales, marketing. I was at Lexus. I've been at Scion. I was at Toyota multiple times, Lexus multiple times. So I've been all over the company doing multiple jobs, and it has literally been just a gift from God to be in this company.

Sean: That's awesome. I love to hear the journey. At some point we will have that conversation and probe into the weeds. But someone asked me maybe six or eight weeks ago, they said, what's the most significant thing you have learned this year? And what came to my mind was something you said from stage. I'm going to set it up and I'm going to assume you'll know what I'm talking about here: you asked this audience, you said something effective, who is the most important person in your life? And then you walked through who their responses would be, gave an answer I didn't expect. And Jack, I'm telling you, most days this goes through my mind. So, share what that illustration was.

Jack: Man, I appreciate it. And I'm getting goosebumps on my body. People can see it when I hear the question and talk about it, because this has been a very significant piece to my life and my career. And it was literally downloaded to me by my dad, my father, God, and in a weird time. And it is this, I like to ask, who's the most important person in your life right now? Who's the most important person? And if you're married, almost every, well, no…first, most audiences say, oh, it's God.

Sean: If they're Christians, of course.

Jack: If you're a Christian, you're like, oh, it’s God, because every answer in church is either Jesus or God. Exactly. Oh, who's the most important person? It's Jesus. Okay. And I'll say, well, no, not really, because let's think through this. God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit is inside of you. You've been indwelt by it. And, because of that, you see the most important person, then, as yourself because of what is inside you. And people laugh and they chuckle, but they get it. The second, then I'll say…okay, let's assume that we understand you're already, you know, you've become one with God. Then the second part of that is, if you're married, most people say, oh, well, my spouse. It must be my spouse. And I'm like, well, that seems like a good answer. But I would say no. And they chuckle and they're like, what do you mean, no? I'm going to get in trouble if it's not God or if it's not my spouse. I said, well, no, because when you become married, two become one. And with Christ, including both of you, three chords of a strand cannot be broken. And so I look at this and I say, no. And I say, okay, let me ask you again, who's the most important person in your life right now? And they might say your kids or something, grandparents. I say no, the most important person in your life at any given moment is the person directly in front of you. And people stop and they always kind of have this…like you just did, Sean, like it's kind of like, hmm. And I say, here's why, because it's the only person in front of you that God can speak through your life to them and through their life to you. And it's helped me learn how to look at people in the eye and really pay attention to what they're saying, because the most important person is the only person I can actually interact with at that moment. And to me, it changed my life as a person, not just a faith, but in any walk, when you make the other person important, their response is so much more genuine. And then you can actually get down to business, whether it be in a faith position or work position, it doesn't matter. And that, to me, has been a huge deal in my life. And I love sharing that. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to share that piece.

Sean: In some ways, it's so simple. And yet, it's so profound in our age of, just, distraction and social media. It's like, that person is made in God's image and I am only guaranteed this moment. Living moment by moment. I think about that a lot, Jack, and I hope it really sinks home with our audience. Now, you gave this talk on five principles of leadership and discipleship. And one of them, you said, to make the point to prioritize people over products and profit. So, how do you do that when leading such a massive company where that matters? And what are some principles that people could do if they're not in the same kind of leadership position that you're in?

Jack: Yeah. Okay, so what's interesting…and I appreciate you picking up on that as I spoke. The idea of people before product, people before process, people before profits, people before performance—I've used it in many ways—is that if you start by putting people first, everything else, in my experience, falls into place. If I can demand, and I have, and earlier in my job done things where I'm actually demanding performance out of somebody or a group, that people will give it to you for a short period of time. In fact, you can push people really, really hard and they will deliver. At some point, it starts to diminish, because they're not looked at as people. They're looked at as performers only. And performers get tired. I don't care if you're an athlete or a musician. There's only so much that can be pushed. I learned this when I came to a new group, when I was transferred to a group. And when I got into this group, they're performing at a high level, and then they had the lowest engagement in their job based on our employee scores. They had low engagement and low enjoyment, but they were super high performers. Well, what happened was, the person I was taking over for was a person who demanded high performance and never let off the gas. When I got there, I started interviewing each person one at a time. And I kept hearing the same thing: I don't know if anybody really cares about me or my job. They just care that I give them performance. Right there is when it snapped, and I became, people have got to be first. And here's the greatest thing about it. When you put people first, and you truly get behind them…I'd ask your audience, do you know the people who work for you? Do you know people that you work with? Do you know the names of their spouses and their kids? And when you do, these people start to open up, and they actually give you greater performance than what you demand out of them. And the people-first concept—back to simplicity—is literally about the person in front of you is most important. Listen to them, know them, give them what they need to be successful. And I promise you, that confidence in them and the freedom that you give them comes out in extreme performance, exceptional profits, and exceptional processes, and we can go on and on. And it's just really about thinking, what do I want from a longer term perspective? And that is for the people to be empowered to do the jobs that they may not even know what they do.

Sean: I love that. It's such a Christian way of thinking about people. You're not just a means, you are an end. When we treat people as they're designed to be treated as we see in Scripture, then people want to perform and they want to please. It's just such a biblical way to look at it. Go ahead.

Jack: But, Sean, I would also say…it is a biblical way to look at it, which is the reason why you and I could be here with people who are primarily believers who are going to see this. But it's not just that. I have been able to teach many people who work for me, who aren't believers, who now believe in the people before profits, because they've seen the evidence in front of them that when they put their teammates, I would say, on an equal level, or their bosses, or the people who work for them—it doesn't matter, it’s all three levels—they've seen the people engage at a greater level. And so, if you really want long-term, consistent profits, you put the people first and you protect them, and it will deliver in the long-term.

Sean: Now, what would you say, Jack, if somebody goes, oh, okay, now I have this strategy, but I'm going to treat people this way to get the end that I want. My suspicion is, at some point people are just going to figure it out and know you don't care. Right? So you can't look at it in that fashion. It's not going to work. And it's not going to treat people the way they should be treated.

Jack: That's why, internally, what I have actually espoused most of the time—which, I kind of went further when we were together in the Philippines—that's why I don't go all the way there. Internally, I call it people first. If you just end with the statement people first, and you are genuine about it, everyone's going to see through it when you're not transparent. They'll tell you if you’re not trustworthy and they'll tell you if you’re not full of integrity. The issue is, can you truly put people first? Can you actually make a commitment as an entrepreneur, as a corporate person, as an individual contributor? It doesn't matter. Can you put the people around you first? And if you can, the results come. But if you're thinking, oh, I'm going to get something by doing it this way, I would assume—I haven't experienced it because I haven't done it that way—but I would assume it would be an abject failure.

Sean: I think that's a completely fair assumption. People will sniff it out for sure. Now, I'm curious how you deal with failure because your life—just so much success. Obviously, you've had some kind of failure. You're comfortable sharing. Maybe an example that was just a misstep, something in leadership, you're like, I wish I had a do-over on this one. And how you deal with failure.

Jack: And let me see, this morning or yesterday?

Sean: [laughs]

Jack: It's like, every day there's something. You know what? I love sharing my failures. I love sharing because I continue to kind of preach the idea of just fail fast, acknowledge it, be humble, apologize, and then do it again. Go for it. Because I don't think anybody sets out to fail.

Sean: Agreed.

Jack: I'll give you a quick example. Back several years ago, I'd say 10 years ago, I had two employees, both of them. I don't want to use names here in case they somehow are listening. But two employees, both were exceedingly good. However, they did not get along. They did not get along so much that they actually started to attack one another. My superior decided that one person needed to be promoted and one person did not. They gave the person a promotion. I actually believed the other person should have gotten the promotion, but he didn't ask me. Instead of me going to fight for that, I kind of let it happen. I kind of let something happen. And I didn't put people first there. If I really was putting people first, I would have gone and stood up for the person I thought deserved it. It turns out the person who did not get the promotion was so upset, the person ended up, unfortunately, leaving the company. They went off and kind of went crazy. They lost it. They went out and had a few drinks and they came back and they said some stupid things. And now, they got themselves in trouble, and they ended up leaving the company. I thought about that, and a week or two later, I was thinking, you know, why didn't I stand up for that person? And I can't give a good answer. I think it was more about, hey, listen, boss said it. I'll do it. It wasn't too bad of a decision. Well, the reason I share that story is, one year later, the person who got promoted ended up leaving the company. I went back to the person who I knew was kind of thinking about it themself, back to the person who left the company—I followed that person for three years and rehired them.

Sean: Oh, wow.

Jack: That person has since come back into the company. I've stood up for them and seen them prosper. So a failure in the sense that I didn't do it. You rarely get to come back and fix it. But what it taught me was this: stand up for your people, know your people well enough who you can stand up for, but also be willing to communicate hard things both upward and downward. And so, I will tell you from that one experience, I have learned lesson after lesson that I've now applied—failed a few more times in similar ways. But I continue to strive after it to get better.

Sean: That's a great example. I appreciate that. Now, you mentioned in your talk again that leadership is a skill people can develop. And of course, there's endless debates. Are people born this way or not? But nonetheless, we can all at least cultivate certain kinds of leadership. So kind of a two-part question. I'm curious how you would define leadership. What is it? And how do you train people to be better leaders? And I'm going to throw out my definition, make myself vulnerable, because I don't read leadership books. I can't remember the last one I read. I didn't look this up. I just thought about it for a little bit. Seems to me leadership is when someone recognizes a problem and then comes up with a solution of how to fix it, and then motivates people to join in to fix the problem. What do you think? And how do you train people in leadership?

Jack: Well, first of all, I think maybe you should write that down as a leadership definition and for one of your next books, you should have that part. You should have that as a, maybe a lead sentence or statement.

Sean: [laughs]

Jack: Okay, so. Wow. I don't use a set leadership definition on purpose.

Sean: Oh, okay.

Jack: Because I think once you do, it’s impossible to capture all of the elements that filter into leadership. Every time I think I’ve got it, I learned something new and it expands my leadership definition. So here's what I will tell you. I think leadership is the greatest human skill. I think you can learn it. I don't think you are born a leader. I don't believe that. I believe you have characteristics that are more highly sought after by society. But I do not believe it is a—I believe everybody has the same opportunity and ability to lead. That’s number one. Number two is my definition has more to do about—it's the ability to influence yourself and others. That's the most simplistic.

Sean: Okay, okay.

Jack: Small definition is, your ability to influence yourself and others. And I say yourself because people say, what does that mean? Because leadership is, you have to continuously be ready to learn. You have to humble yourself to say that you didn't do very good, and be able to influence yourself to change. It's very critical that leaders…the best leaders, to me, are always in a constant state of changing, expanding, challenging themselves so that they can have a greater ability to influence others. And in this case, in the Christian realm, it’s to influence others for the kingdom.

Sean: Amen. I love that. That's a really simple way to look at leadership, just influencing yourself and positively influencing others. Was there—did I cut you off? Were you going to say more about that?

Jack: No, I just you know—you didn't cut me off. I was more, like, positive thinking because you asked me a part of the question about how do I attain it, or how do we attain more of those skills? You know, if I say it's the greatest human skill, then how do you work on that craft? You mentioned you don't really read a lot of leadership books. I do. But the greatest leadership book is the, you know, the all time bestselling book of the world.

Sean: Amen.

Jack: And we go to the Bible and you just…you don't need other leadership books. They’re helpful, and I do think that God has imparted wisdom to many humans that have really affected me. But when you're really challenged, the greatest leadership book is to dig in further and further and further, attending to the entire Bible. But I would always, then, emphasize what you see in the gospel.

Sean: So let's probe into that a little bit. What have you learned from the life of Jesus? How he led his disciples, how he led in terms of how he teaches, from whatever aspect? What have you learned from his life that influences the way you lead?

Jack: Yeah, thanks. This is what I consider. Starting at the age of five, we continue to learn because we are in the Scriptures, and we see something new every single time we're there. And what makes me upset at myself, or where you want to talk about failure, is sometimes having to read the same thing over ten times before I actually learn what it means and then how to apply it. So I keep looking at Jesus's life over and over. In fact, recently I've been watching The Chosen television program over and over, and then I'll challenge myself to go back to the Scriptures, read it. Back and forth to The Chosen, back to the Scriptures. Because, this idea in my own head, is watching Jesus continue to lead others was never about commanding them. It was about getting them to see what they don't see. Asking good questions. I think the biggest thing I've seen in Jesus's life was to ask good questions. Yes, He spoke in parables because He didn't want to make it, I believe, so obvious. He wanted each person to grow at the timing and the speed of which they were maturing. I quite honestly believe he probably looked at them, and he saw different growth in them at different periods of time. And even when, in his Word, when he gets frustrated, like, why are you guys just not getting this? He could have just come in, and clearly, He can do whatever He wanted to. He wanted them to grasp it on their own. So He had to keep showing them over and over. And it reminds me of how puny my faith is sometimes, where I need to keep learning it over and over and over. So I've learned through the Scriptures to continue to read, and completely ask for, almost, forgiveness for not getting it. And then I would say that one of the elements that I have also learned, and maybe it's because I'm biased, because I look at things through a business lens, but a significant number of those disciples that were there came from commerce or some sort of trade or commercialness. And I look at, okay, if he was leading disciples who were business types of leaders, most of them, how does that apply to me? It is going into that place, to be a disciple maker in the workplace. And even if they're not believers, you can still lead in such a way that's so attractive that they want to follow. And I’ve got say one more thing. I'm sorry. I'm going way too long. I'm excited about this one piece.

Sean: [laughs]

Jack: If you ever are asking somebody a question about who's your greatest leader of all time, you get great feedback and they're great leaders. And I always will get to Jesus and people—it doesn't matter if you're in a Christian setting or a non-Christian setting. If you ask them, I'll say, well, to me, Jesus—and people kind of look at you like, oh, what, you know, what does that mean? I'll say, okay, how many people do you know in the history of all time who left everything of their homes, everything of their family, everything of their money, everything of their jobs to follow a guy they had never met, barely even maybe even heard of, to go walk to no home, not knowing where you're staying, where you're going to eat, what you're going to do to, just listen and learn for three plus years for no outcome for themselves. That to me—tell me a person of all time in history that that's happened. And that alone talks about how you can, if you want to say, prove His leadership qualities, now break them down into what He did. And that's where you go on and on—years, hours and hours, upon years of learning on this.

Sean: We had a motto a few years ago at Biola, that was to think biblically about everything. How do you think biblically about being a nurse, about being in science, about music, about art, in history, et cetera. And we have a business program here, a department, that really intentionally tries to integrate that. And, in fact, that's where we got the title of this podcast, Think Biblically, about all these topics. How do you integrate biblical ideas into your business practice? Now, in some ways, you've been talking about this for the last 25 minutes. But what does it look like to think biblically about business?

Jack: That is a fantastic question. I've never had it posed that way. I've learned that, you know, people say, well, I need a quiet time every morning. And I had a pastor tell me one day, Jack, why are you so frustrated with yourself about your quiet time? Because I kept bringing it up. And he said, you're kind of a loud guy. Have a loud time with God. Why do you need to be in a quiet time with God? And his point was well taken. Like, be loud, whatever, but focus on God. And so I started this thing where I wake up every morning and I have my CEO boardroom meeting with my CEO, God, every morning. So when I talk about thinking biblically, I'm thinking about how am I representing God's family and God's company? His company is me. He's put me in charge of what I'm going to do. So I call that my company. He's my CEO. And now I'm going to work. So I think biblically by starting by asking every single morning, loudly sometimes, what do you have for me to do today to lead others or influence others, benefit others, serve others? I use different words. So that's how I start. That's part one. So what I'm going to do is…thinking biblically would be simply this. I see the way the disciples walked and learned. And there wasn't just only evangelism. It was all kinds of helping and serving. So, biblically, what I try to bring is, when I go to the workplace, what does it look like to truly serve others? I don't think there's any other kind that is as effective long-term as servant leadership. So my question to myself tends to be, what am I going to do today to serve? That's how I think biblically, because if you take that umbrella, it covers everything. And that's where I usually start and I try to live into.

Sean: That's great. Good stuff. One or two more for you at most. Are there unique challenges you face in the business world in your position as a Christian? Because you're dealing with people with different worldviews and different backgrounds and different faiths and different values. You've got to make tough decisions. What are some of those unique challenges and how do you navigate them?

Jack: Yeah, Sean, I was so impressed when you were speaking in the Philippines about the things that you do on a daily basis, of how you're talking about tough societal issues from a biblical perspective. And how do you come around someone, not attacking someone? It's not about me versus you. It's about loving someone. But bringing truth out. Quite honestly, the part that's difficult in corporate America, or really probably business in general, is that as soon as you go down a path of speaking about faith, you quickly find out who's for you and who's against you. And the more that I have learned to be a little bit older, the more the attacks come stronger. What I have found, however, is—and I would like to give this piece of advice to anyone listening to this—is this: when you represent who you are by saying “in my experience” or “I believe” or if you start with that, you are in full legal bounds to say whatever you want. And I say, I believe in Jesus Christ. And in fact, in this December month, I'm going to be talking to you about Christmas because I celebrate Christmas and I enjoy it. And I'm going to refer to Christmas as the holiday of Jesus's birth. I'll say, and if you are celebrating something different, I'd be interested to learn from you. What kind of things are important to you? But I want to let you know before I start, I'm going to reference this in this sense. And what's happened is that, then, nobody can then come back and say, oh, he's saying Merry Christmas or whatever, because I'm saying this is who I am. What I believe. I'm just letting you know upfront. I'm not telling you what to believe. And so there's been these elements. But what I want everyone who's listening to this to remember is, we are representative of the CEO of the world, of the boss of the world. And when we reflect that that's what we're doing and not trying to do more than that—I mean, I say do more; we try to just portray it humbly. I truly believe people respect it, and the attacks become less. That's what I've experienced.

Sean: I love that, that you're wanting to be bold, share your faith, but also wise in a sense like Daniel was in Babylon, and not put any unnecessary barriers between me that I don't need to have to live out and share my faith. And I think you've given a lot of thought to that. So that's such good, such good wisdom. Now I've got a million more questions for you, but that just gives us an excuse to do this sometime again down the road. But we really appreciate you taking the time to do this, loved meeting with you. Hope we can do a ton more together. But our prayers—look, final question. How could our folks who listen to this pray for you given the position that God has given you to influence so many people?

Jack: Wow. Thank you. I think that very simply that I would continue to work for God, and get paid by Toyota, but to do so in such a way that is authentically other-minded. That I would be protected against the easiest things of selfishness or pride, because those are the areas that have attacked my life or my career and just get in the way. And what would really simply be is that Jack Hollis would continue to strive after kingdom business, not anything else. And that would be quite a blessing in my life. It would just be that simple of a prayer.

Sean: I love it. Absolutely love it. What a wonderful response, and way to bring this thing full circle. So anything I can ever do for you, anything we can do for you at Biola, certainly let us know. Thanks for taking the time, my friend. This has been a joy.

Jack: Sean, it has been a joy and an honor. I am just so proud and honored to have gotten to know you, and just did a little bit, and I look forward to more.

Sean: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith and Culture. The Think Biblically podcast is brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at ��ݮ��Ƶ. We have programs online and on campus, including our Masters in Christian Apologetics, in which I teach at. To submit comments and ask questions, please email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. That's thinkbiblically@biola.edu. And make sure you join us this Friday for our Cultural Update, where we take three or four issues of the day, help you think biblically about them, and respond to your questions. We hope you'll consider giving us a rating on your podcast app and consider sharing this with a friend. Thanks so much for listening, and remember, think biblically about everything.